MFG 19 Rudder

Hello everyone!

I'm new here so bare with me if I ask some fairly stupid questions...
I recently bought and will bring home in a week a '78 MFG 19 that is in pretty good condition. There are a few things that need replacing and a lot of cleaning but everything seems to be in fairly good condition.
One item that is missing is the rudder/tiller. I am in the process of working out designs to build my own, as buying one runs roughly $600, which is just about what I paid for the entire boat and trailer. Does anyone have demensions and more importantly, pictures of theirs they could possibly share?
The other item that will need to be purchased is a kicker for the back, it has the high-low mount and I am presently looking at a couple of Johnson motors, an 8 hp and a 9.5 which I think is too big. The problem here is both these motors are at the right price and condition, where as the smaller 6 hp and less that I found are at a premium price. After reading through the forums here I noticed the largest motor is a 6 hp. The boat will be used both on lakes and the ocean as I live fairly close to it here in Maine.

Also, for reference, does anyone have any pictures of their interiors they can send me? I'm trying to get a scope of what I need to do there as well.

Thanks everyone in advance for your comments and support.


Tony

Hello Storm,
What part of Maine waters do you sail in? I sail my MFG19 around the islands and bays of Boothbay Harbor. If I can figure out how to post picture I'll take some of my rudder/tiller for you to view. I'll be hauling my boat soon even though there is still a lot of nice fall sailing weather left. I need to get in onshore so I can get some measurements to install a new forestay and roller reefing. I have a short shaft 6hp Johnson which does an OK job as long as I don't go forward when I'm using it. I also need to do some work on the interior.
Wally

Hi Tony,

Welcome to MFG 19 community!

Several years ago, I considered replacing my rudder and made a template, which I've just dug out of the garage. The wooden part of the rudder is just over 10 and 1/2" wide, one edge is 52" long, the other is 50" long. The bottom is straight but at a slight angle (to reflect the 50 vs 52 difference in length). The top is rounded in a smooth arc, about a third of a circle. This accomodates the fitting into a metal sheath which contains, amongst other things, a line for use in pulling up the rudder in shallow water. Lower in the metal sheath will be two pivot holes for pins to keep the rudder in place or allow it to be pulled up. I don't have the dimension of the metal sheath, and I believe there is another section of wood in the upper part of the sheath. The dimensions given are for the rotating part of the rudder.

Thickness is probably one inch, although I don't have that dimension on my template. This dimension comes from the width of the tiller where it connects to the rudder. Length of tiller should be about 40" If you intend to singlehand, you may want to add a tiller extension. The longer the tiller, the more cramped the cockpit will be when you are tacking or jibing. Tiller should be ash, and made of two pieces laminated together for strength, as there will be tremendous force exerted on the tiller....I've broken three tillers before acquiring the one described above.

In re: motors......I use a 36 lbs of thrust trolling motor to maneuver in and out of harbor. But I keep my MFG on an inland lake, so don't need anything more. On my Chesapeake Boat, we use a 6hp Mercury outboard. It's OK, but when the wind is against us and the channel is narrow or restricted, it's not really enough. So I would recommend the Johnson 8 or 9.5, providing it has both forward and reverse settings, and allows easy throttle control.

When the boats come out of the lake next month, I'll see if I can get some pics of the rudder tilller arrangements.

Ken

Wally, Ken;

Thanks for the response and help, it is much appreciated.
I'm actually chomping at the bit to get my boat here this Thursday (Oct 1st) I should just have enough time before covering her for winter to clean her up and make a detailed list of the parts I will be making or replacing.

Wally, my background, so-to-speak started in upstate NY where I initallyl taught sailing to kids for about 6 years, when I moved to Maine in '84 I was living aboard a Bristol 27 from April to Nov and renting during the winter. I sailed roughly from Freeport to Belfast in that area. Actually got married on her bow. However, life's many twists made me a land-lubber for 15 years, (working a full time job and running a full time business) so I'm just getting back into it again. I hope to be sailing both on the ocean and on many of Maine's (and New England's) inland lakes, including hopefully, the Chesapeake where Ken is.

Thanks Ken for the dimensions, your plan sounds nearly the same as mine. My rudder plan just uses a few already made pieces. I found on ebay a tiller with hardware just as you described. I also found a pair of rod reinforced fiberglass rudders, 31" long and they already have the pivot-swing hole. My plan is to use one of these positioned with three lengths of boards, one slightly shorter in the center where the tiller will attach. The entire thickness of the main portion of the rudder will be 3" while the kick up portion of the rudder will be 3/4".
Overkill...heck yeah, but I've been reading through the forums here and how many people have snapped their rudders or tillers.
I did find one that is made exactly for the boat through Idasailor.com for $600, but I'm too cheap I guess.

I purchased a Johnson 8 hp long shaft...and I must admit, it is a LOOOONG shaft! I think it is an extended shaft too boot. Once I put it on the mount, which is at least movable, I will bet when it's all the way down it will extend 3/4 the length of the rudder, but I'll see.

If anyone wants to send me some pics direct please use this email address timework@roadrunner.com if you guys send me yours once I get her here I'll send some pics too.


Again, thanks for the responses, it's cool to have others to chat and discuss things with.

Hi Tony,

I can go you one better than pics, if you live near Waterville or Bangor, I can show you my rudder and interior. In fact I am still in the water, so if you want to sail. Let me know. Though I suspect Boothbay would be prettier right now, so you might want to visit Wally.

Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the Invite! I might just take you up on it.
I just got my boat home yesterday and had to fix one of the cockpit drains right off. The boat had been under cover for years so i want this weekends rain to give it a good soak ( and hopefully wash some of the dirt off). The previous owner had bundles and bundles of gear he took off the boat to clean and repair and...well...whatever. One item that I found was a jib furler, never used one. I also found all the hardware...and fortunately the tiller for the rudder, so that will be one of my winter projects...among many.

How long are you leaving your boat in the water?


Best
Tony

Probably another week or two... this weekend will be too wet...
After that I'll have it in Dixmont.

Hey Ken,

Just how much force do you have on your tiller? Mine steers with a finger and my seven year old can maneuver the boat easily.

Chris,

Can't actually say how much force is on the tiller. Most of the time, it's very easy and very responsive....fingertip control, as you report.

The first tiller that I broke was a consequence of jibing fast rather than slow in about 10 mph winds. This was the tiller which I acquired with the boat. I modified the length of that tiller (it had been marginally too long for cockpit comfort), and then broke it again. I don't recall the circumstances of that break. This tiller probably was the victim of dry rot over the years. I then substituted a strip of red oak, about 3/4 inch thickness and 2 inch width. This one snapped just outside the harbor entrance in low winds.

As I reflect back, in my early years with the boat, I often discovered shallow water by jamming the rudder into it. [My rudder isn't equipped with the pop-up feature most of the other boats have], so my first reaction is to scull with the rudder to attempt to free it and then motor in reverse. The back and forth of the sculling probably put unaccustomed pressure on the tiller at the rudder connection, which most of you won't have experienced.

Since then, I've been using the ash tiller [and avoiding the shallow water!] made by a wooden boat building friend, and it's been fine.

Ken

Ken,

I found on Ebay a set of 31" rudders that came off a catameran. here's the link ...

[cgi.ebay.com]

Not sure if links work here, but you can always copy and paste it into a browser window. Anyway, I think it would be fairly easy to modify your existing rudder into a kick up. This is the route that I'm heading down for this winters project.

Quick question, the inside cabin windows...is there any form of moulding or framework on them? Mine are just fiberglass with what looks like a lip where something should go. In the spring I still have to paint my interior and was just wondering if anything covered these.


Tony

Re: cabin windows.

Mine appear to be just inset in the fiberglass, I recall what look like pop rivets.around the edge of the windows. I'll photograph the interior when I haul the boat later this month and have removed the removable stuff, including the curtains.

I'll email to your email address photos of the rudder from a friend's boat, since I apparently can't paste or attach it here. More detail with the email.

Ken,

Thanks, the pics will be a massive help. My windows also appear to be pop riveted, which will make replacing them a nighmare if and when that needs to be done. My interior seems as well to be molded into the fiberglass.

One thing that I've also been searching for is either a bow pulpit or the parts to make one. Of course, I don't have the proper tools to bend stainlessn or cut it, so that is going to be another problem. I was surprised that my boat never came with a pulpit on...odd I guess. I suppose it really doesn't matter as going forward to the bow would not be a fun task wtih the slant of the deck anyway. I can't imagine many people doing this while underway unless there was a problem with the foresail.

thanks again, I'll keep an eye out for your pics when you send them,

Best
Tony

Call me old fashioned, or maybe just set in my ways when it comes to roller furling. My boat came without it, but with the bow pulpit. Over the years, the bow pulpit and the lifelines have been very nice when exchanging the jib for the genoa and vice versa. On a slow day (windy or I'm just moving at 20% capacity) it takes ten minutes to do the sail change. On a good day, I can do it in about two minutes, maybe a little faster.

The advantage of the jib furler is that you can adjust the size of your sail from the comfort of your cockpit, assuming everything works. The disadvantage, (and it's a small one) is that as you decrease the size of the sail, you change the balance of the boat by moving the center of force up as the foot of the sail rises up the forestay. How significant that is on the MFG-19, I don't know...it's a very stable boat.

On the other hand, it does't take long to do the sail change, using the forward hatch to get the replacement sail and dump the discarded sail, and rerun the sheets through the blocks.

I also feel more in charge, more "salty" doing the manual sail change rather than using a furling system. But if you don't have a bow pulpit, then roller furling makes some sense.

If you do install a pulpit, you should consider getting lifelines with a snap hook, so that you can disconnect them when coming back to a dock. I've had far more guests trip over my lifelines as they boarded the boat than were ever saved from falling off the boat by them.

Ken

My windows were replaced at one point and are secured with sheet metal screws (stainless). No molding, bloody sharp buggers when you bump your head on 'em. That is one of my projects is to put molding over them.... or replace them with rivets or cap screws.

The cat rudders look narrow to me, but it is hard to tell. My rudder is about 9 inches from leading to tailing edge.

Check Hamilton Marine... [hamiltonmarine.com] I would bet they can order you a pulpit kit all ready to install.

And their store in Searsport is a good excuse to go to Belfast.

Chris, Ken

The Cat rudders are 9.5 from each edge. They're fiberglass with multiple steel rods running the length. Fairly light but very stiff without any flex.

My windows still have the rivets and the "smoked" plexi as windows. The insides though, look very hard to place any form of molding, though it looks like something was there before the headliner was removed. I still have to paint the interior cabin roof all the way down to the deck, that'll be a spring job.

I checked Hamiliton Marine (we have one down close to me in Rockland too.) but they only sell the fittings and straight stainless. There is a place I'm getting a quote from, whitewatermarineinc.com
They sent me a template, I gave them the measurements they needed so we'll see how scary the quote looks. I was also considering putting lifelines on as well but I'm not sure and like Ken mentioned, using the forward hatch makes getting things done forward that much easier. I know when I lived aboard my Bristol, having a walkable side deck was nice, though it did detract from room down below.

My MFG 19 only came with a main and jib, the furler was tucked away in a seperate bag without any documentation. Like you Ken, I never used one before and always went forward to drop the sail. I had a scary as heck day many years ago when I was bringing my Bristol up the coast to Cushing from Freeport, a hop-skip-and a jump in distance, however, it was just after hurricane Gloria (I think it was Gloria) down south had slammed into something, Florida or the Carolina's and the Bay was full of quite high swells. Anyway, I went forward to drop the jib and happened to catch a glimpse, over the bow, of my complete keel- out of the water. Next thing I knew, I was haning onto the pulpit for life with water up to my chin as I slammed into the next wave. I think the only thing that kept me on that deck was the harness i was wearing at the time. I made it to Cushing though...

Thanks guys for the advice, I do take it all and appreciate it too, keep it coming!

Tony

Ah, the list goes on!
I'm eventually going to tackle the many other problems

HI Tony, Chris,

I was at the marina yesterday on other business and checked my windows. They appear flush with the interior service, but are secured from the outside with an abundance of small sheet metal Phillips head screws. I noticed a couple had come loose, so add a new project to the winter list.

Heading for Maryland on Saturday, back on Tuesday.

Ken

Ken, Chris,

My windows are similar, the inside however has just molded fiberglass all around them right to the window. There is even some glass fibers sticking out. That is what led me to believe there was some form of molding around them, either on the inside close to the window or around the entire shape of the window.
My wife and I spent yesterday (Sat) cleaning the interior, it was dirty and hadn't been touched for years it seemed. I decided to take my power washer and go for it. I was shocked, no surprised when my washer barely put a dent in taking off the dirt. It worked well on much of the oxyidated hull so I thought it would work well here too.
Wrong...
We ended up spending the entire day scrubbing by hand and then washing it down with the washer and then using the bilge pump to suck it all out. Looks good now.
As you probably already know, the more you look the more you find. I knew I had to "tighten" up my through hull fitting for the cockpit drains, what I didn't anticipate was access to get to from the inside. I'm not a small guy by any means but I can fit beneath the cockpit to the end, though, I must admit, I started to feel a little like I was in the movie "The Descent" with a touch of claustrophoibia. However, here's what I found.
There is an access hole in the rear where you can reach your arm, half dis-jointed of course, through. I can access my motor mount bolts but could barely feel the through hull fitting. My wife even tried by her arms were not long enough. So, I took my trusty saws-all and cut a larger chuck out of the panel. Now I can feel it, still, dis-jointed of course. What I found was the plastic screw-on that tightens the plug to the hull was backed off for some reason. I tried to turn it to at least tighten it up but it wouldn't budge.
Upon further inspection, I realized that the through hull fitting will have to be replaced, I'm probably going to put a good brass one in. My only dilemma...getting in there to properly tighten it.
Any thoughts?
Most of my dealings with through hull fittings were pretty much "in your face" access so this is a new experience for me.

Also, does your keel have a drain plug? I can't see anywhere where this does, but I thought all shoal draft or keel trailerable boats had them.
If I can't find one, I was thinking about putting some RV antifreeze into the bilge for the winter.


Thanks guys for all the input and support, I'm sure as I move ahead now right through till the spring I will have LOADS of questions!

Tony

Yeah. I have the same tiny port (with a cover on it). I have not tried to reach the through the hull fitting, but did have to reattach the drain tube. Very conveniently, that slid through one hole and right on over the nipple with a bit of mild persuasion. I did not clamp it.

Perhaps you could fasten the inside piece to the drain tube and pass that through the hole, then attach the outer collar and tighten it up from outside.

No drain plug in the keel, but I am drilling a 3/8 inch hole down through the center of the keel plate so I can use my shop vac to draw water out of the keel tunnel. I almost got through and ran out of drill bit. Have to buy a longer one.

My front hatch leaks and my cockpit drains plugged up... last trip I had to pump 50 gallons out of the cockpit.

Getting the boat in was fun... 15-20 knot winds driving straight at the launch ramp... used my anchor off the back and my sheet winches to ease onto the trailer, then slung the anchor off to the side to keep the boat straight.

I pulled my boat on Monday, along with another MFG owner. So it's out of the water and on the hard for the winter/spring. Most of my projects require warm/dry weather, so I may not get the boat relaunched as early as my habit has been.

Cockpit drains: these have always been an aggravation.....there's no reason,except it was probably cheaper production, to configure this to drain through the cabin and out the stern. Ideally, the drains should be at the rear of the cocpit through a tube to the outer hull and the lake. I may attempt to implement this system before launching in the spring. Whenever there has been rain, my first task upon arriving at the marina has been to bail the cockpit. There's never been enough water in the cockpit to sink the boat, even when it's been full to the bench level, I've had the drains blown out with compressed air, I've run snakes through them, it's always a temporary fix.

I'll probably put another inspection port on the aft wall of the cockpit to make it easier to access that through hull drain that's already there.

When you read the design considerations somewhere on this site for the MFG-19, you'll see that the keel was totally glassed in to eliminate the need for draining it. Unless your keel has been damaged to the extent that the lead was exposed, I would be reluctant to attempt to put in a drain.

My front hatch has seen better times, but I think the leaks have been around the windows and around the tabernacle at the base of the mast. That's another spring project when I'll examine that area and add a through-hull (actually through the cabin roof) connection for the masthead light, a steaming light, possibly spreader lights, and a radio antenna lead. If there's extra money, I may replace the front hatch as well.

Also on the project list is replacing the wooden portion of the motor mount.

Chris, that landing is classic description of a lee shore! I wouldn't have thought of using the anchor that way.

Ken

Chris/ Ken,

Well...one nightmare is over!
I replaced the through hull drain plug, what a nightmare. I wanted to go brass, but ended up with the same type of plastic one that was on there, mainly because it was easier to replace in kind. First I took the entire hose assembly off, replaced the hose and clamps. Now, to attach this whole rig you have to work with one arm, through that hole, which I initially tried and then got ticked off and with my sawsall - widened it for access, still with one arm though.
Anyway, you have to have someone on the outside pushing firmly on the plug, then after you've contorted yourself like Mr. Pretzel to get in there you slip the hose through the inner hull at the back beneath the cockpit, then slip the hose clamp on (tighten it just enough to hold it in place) and then threaded lock nut for the through hull plug. Now, you slide your hose on, tighen your hose clamp and then the through hull nut. Make sure before the plug is seated that you put a good sealer around it before putting it in place. Now, if you have a 11/4 wrench or extremely large adjustable...or a set of channel locks, you tighten the nut until it's snug.
It's that easy!
Yeah...right.
By the time I got done after nearly two hours of contorting myself in positions I thought could only happen by bowing to management on the job, I was a wreak. Not a well thought out design that's for sure.

Well, my boat is wrapped for the winter. I took all the wood off and plan to sand it all down and spiffy it up for spring, along with building the rudder and designing a slide out kitchen. Come spring...well the list is long.

I too get minor drips from various points, notably the mast step where the running light wires come through and my hatch as well. It's in pretty good shape, just needs a little TLC.
I decided (not totally true, my walled decided) that I'm not going to pursue a bow pulpit this year or next. I got a quote from a place for $325, without shipping. Tad high considering all the other things I need to purchase. I'd almost opt, if I could get one, for a stern rail. It seems that would be the most logical place to deploy an anchor on this boat, especially if you're single handed.

Chris, 15-20 knot winds man that must have been a nightmare trying to load!
You made me think here...which is good and what this is all about. On other boats that I've owned I used a couple of items to make things easier. One was a set of bunk mates on the trailer. On the MFG trailers, they could be attached to the regular bunk supports. That would at least keep the boat level and in the right place when loading. The other item...actually two is a duel reciever hitch, I have one that contains the lower ball hitch and an upper opening for another attachment. What I used in the past in this is a mounted 12V winch. Of course, doing this by yourself isn't easy.

Speaking of trailering...I'm pretty sure the tongue of my trailer is too short, there is maybe 2-3 feet from the bow of the boat which means half of my truck is going in the drink to get the boat off the trailer. I've been doing some searching and found a few places that sell hitch extensions up to 4' they can probably be made as well. It adds another chore to swap it out when you get to the boat ramp, but it might be handy when slipping it in and out.

Ken, if you go the sreader light route let me know how it goes, I can see where they would be handy at times. I had a set on my Bristol years ago and boy did they help! As far as yoru motor mount goes, I'm just hoping the 8 hp Johnson long shaft I picked up isn't too heavy to rip the transom out!

Ah...boats and things we do for them!

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the in-depth desciption replacing the drains! I'll be better prepared as a result of reading that.

I like the idea of a stern pulpit, all the Precisions at my marina have them, and I'm a little envious, but it's far down my list.

As to hanging the anchor off the stern, my first summer with the boat, I did that. As the wind changed direction, so did the boat, with the result that the anchor line was thoroughly entangled with the rudder and motor. You can avoid the motor entanglement by tilting the motor up, and, I suppose, do the same with the rudder, but it's really better off the bow.

What I do is this: I have a snap hook on the end of my anchor line that I attach to the bow eye at the front of the boat. This summer just ahead of the snap hook I have an empty milk bottle secured to the anchor line as a float. If I know I'll be using the achor, I usually attach the anchor line before leaving my slip and running the line back to the cockpit, outside the lifelines.

Ken

Ken,

Really great idea on the anchor line, that will save loads of trouble when the time comes. I still need to purchase the whole kit-n-kabootle next spring. I'm probably going with a Danforth style but I want a foldable grappling hook style as a back up.
I kind of wish the cockpit had bins beneath them, it would make storing this stuff all that much easier. I shouldn't complain though, because if they did, my bod would never have fit beneath the cockpit to fix that drain plug.

I've done some pricing on building my own bow pulpit or stern rail. The hardest part is getting the stainless cut to the right lengths, Hamilton Marine here, will do it for $2 bucks extra a cut and the stainless in 1" x 20' is roughly $130 bucks, then add in all the mounts and you're looking around a couple hundred bucks. I want to do it...but right now that's new trailer tires.
It's amazing how cheaply you can find things when you really search for them.
One item I picked up for $26 bucks was a small portable depth meter. The transducer works through fiberglass hulls and works from 2.5 to 80 feet, It also works as a fish finder/obstruction locator and gives you an idea of what the bottom is comprised of, sand, silt, grass....
Currently, one of the many items I'm looking for cheaply, is a stern mounted foldable boarding ladder. The only thing about these and the MFG's is access to the stern to mount it properly, after my drain ordeal I'm not keen on twisting myself into a knot again under the cockpit. I did find though, a rope ladder type that could be secured on a cleat or on the rear shroud. I opted away from the hook kind as when your done with them you have to store them someplace.

My next project is to start sanding...and sanding...and sanding......I also have to build a new upper hatch cover, the one that is on mine is in terrible condition and not very strong.


Tony